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37 comments:
I can't wait! My comic shop suuuuuucks at getting TPB's and HC's (still haven't seen the first 2 AtF volumes there, had to get them at Books-A-Million), but hopefully they will get a copy!
I was listening to your interview with the people from Buffyfest blog, and I have to say please don't bring Spider to the new Spike series. I know you said that you'd like to win people over, but I don't think that there's anything in your power to do so. I'm not saying this because she is a female near Spike or anything like that (I actually supported the character for the first few issues of A: ATF). However, she used the horrible situation in S: ATF to take advantage of Spike, and at the very least it was sexual assault by dubious consent. When a woman is held prisoner, and one of her male captors demands sex in exchange for letting her and the people she cares about go, you wouldn't call that consensual. Spider had no real intention of helping him at that point, and she took what she wanted with no remorse, no apology. She may have convinced herself that he truly wanted her and maybe she feels like she had the right to do it because she was "tampered" with by Wiccans, but honestly, I don't think there's anything that she could possibly do that would redeem her in the slightest.
I second that about Spider above. I just really want to move on from her character. Please.
The Spike hardcover is out already? Wonderful! If it's at my comic shop when I go there to collect the final Angel: After the Fall tomorrow, I'll definitely pick it up.
Now I've listened to the second half of your Buffyfest interview, though, I have to echo what Fenderlove says about Spider. I've really enjoyed the female OCs you wrote for Asylum and Shadow Puppets, Brian, but not her. For the same reasons as Fenderlove, I don't want to see her near Spike ever again. Sorry about that, but it's how I feel. It was her treatment of Spike in Spike: After the Fall that turned me against her for good.
I enjoyed the rest of the interview very much. Your ideas for the Spike comic sound great.
Deborah
Even as a Spike/Buffy fan, I have to go against the flow and say I wouldn't mind some payoff to the decapitation panel or the Hagun shaft, because as it is, I can't discern Spider's purpose in the "Angel" universe. At all.
I'm going to play devils advocate and say I actually would like to see more done with Spider in the Spike series.There have been several characters who weren't well liked at first in this universe and over time the opinions changed once more character development was given.Connor being a great recent example.
The Spike comic sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun.
Even as a Spike/Buffy fan
It's not even that for me. If it were I'd be disappointed in Drusilla appearing. And I think that's awesome. I just feel like Spider was presented as someone we were supposed to like, but she just came off as an opportunistic, selfish, sadistic [insert pejorative term here]. The payoff for the decapitation panel doesn't seem like much to go on considering we're not going to be jumping that far into the future with flying cars. As for the Hagun shaft, meh. She was just being opportunistic and bloodthirsty again. What is it we're supposed to like about her really? I warmed to her in S:AtF until she started having S&M sex with a seemingly unwilling Spike who was disgusted by the living dead bodies of the people he failed to save surrounding him.
I'm totally fine with her being away for good and those tiny, infinitesimal loose ends cut off from the future narrative.
Sorry for the rant.
Ditto to everything that Fenderlove said. Please send Spider to "Never Ever Come Back Land."
~Scarlet
I didn't see Spike so much as an unwilling partner in his relationship with Spider. I think he was using his charms a bit with her to try and escape and save Fred. Spider is a little superficial but I think she actually does have some feelings for Spike. I don't really see their relationship being quite as "ick" as Fenderlove did. For me the relationship dynamic was very close to that of Spike and Harmony's. I don't really see any long term romantic relationship between the two because she is very infatuated with him and I think he just likes her. They might be able to be friends but I think would be a bit of an awkward. I'd like to see Spike with either Tok or Illyria (if she can have a romantic relationship LOL).
I also vote absolutely NO to Spider appearing in any of the Angelverse comics, Spike's included. Her behavior throughout "After the Fall" was off-putting, and in the Spike:AtF series it was nothing less than barbaric: repeatedly sexually molesting an unwilling prisoner; showing no compassion for either him or the dying people around him; demanding that he stop worrying about his captive, suffering friends and pay attention only to her...I'm sorry, but no one in their right minds would want to be within a hundred miles of someone like that. To portray Spike as enjoying her company, or even enduring her presence, would be completely out of character for him as well as terribly offensive to many of his fans. Nor do I care to see a story about her becoming "good" and worthy of him. She went too far in S:AtF for forgiveness. Please leave her out of the Spike series, and focus on the more likeable characters, such as Jeremy and Betta George.
-Becky-
Wow, I am perplexed by all the negative reaction to Spider here. She is a very complex and interesting character, one that might be explained further in Spike's comic. He will require a support system of his own and she would fit that role. Beck would be another obvious choice. My vote would be for both characters to join Spike in his new adventure.
Dear Anonymous Poster,
I think all the negative stems from the fact that she sexually exploited a man in a very vulnerable position by using his desire to protect those around him to get into his pants. Franco's art shows the disgust. If you place a female character in the same position as Spike and a male character in place of Spider, I doubt people would be clamoring for the two to get together. For God's sake, he'd just been stabbed in the groin with a hot poker, and she still wanted to do him, all the while taunting him that she would just take what she wanted if he didn't allow her to do so! She had no sympathy for him or those he was trying to save. It's not fun; it's not sexy; it's degradation at its lowest level.
It's still too early to figure out if Spider is going to be in Spike's solo series, but all I can say is that anything that happened between her and Spike was consensual. I talked about it with Franco this past weekend, we were surprised that a couple of people saw that differently, but it wasn't rape.
Rape or no, it's still extremely sketchy. The last thing the Spike fans want (in my humble opinion) is to see him in another sketchy relationship with a female who took advantage of him. I think we're quite done with story arcs along those lines. Honestly, why can't he just be single? He's been in relationships for about 90% of his existence--letting him go it alone for awhile more couldn't possibly hurt.
That, and he clearly belongs with Angel. *looks around* Just saying :P
I think all the negative stems from the fact that she sexually exploited a man in a very vulnerable position by using his desire to protect those around him to get into his pants.
Wait, wasn't that Buffy/Spike in season 6? Only it wasn't taking advantage of Buffy's desire to protect those around her, but taking advantage of her depression. And some people just clamored for more. So really...
I think Spike could make an interesting addition. It has happened before that a writer can make a character universally disliked and change it around. So Brian, I hope you aren't scared off the prospect as I think it could make for compelling storytelling - and quite the challenge for you as a writer! Just know that not everyone agrees that having Spider around would be a bad thing. I used to hate Connor in season 4 of AtS, but the writers made me *love* him in season 5 and in the Angel comics.
I used to hate Kennedy (as in a die Kennedy, die kind of way!) in season 7 of Buffy, but have found her far more likeable and interesting in the season 8 comics.
I'm sure there are many such examples that people can provide that show that not all is lost on *any* character and in the write hands (misspell/pun intended) anything is possible.
Oops - I mean it Spider could be an interesting addtion, obviously!
He consented because he was trying to save the people he cared about, but he couldn't exactly say no either what with being chained up and Spider telling him that she would take what she wanted even if he didn't consent (that's not exactly romantic no matter what gender you are). It's called dubious consent. Hell's bells, it's a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario.
Wait, wasn't that Buffy/Spike in season 6? Only it wasn't taking advantage of Buffy's desire to protect those around her, but taking advantage of her depression. And some people just clamored for more. So really...
Oh, yes, because trying to pull someone out of a depression that is slowly sucking the newly regained life out of them by totally misguided but well-intentioned efforts is totally the same as promising to help someone escape certain death in exchange for sex in front of the zombified half-living remains of his friends even though the person is half-starved, beaten, degraded, chained to wall, and stabbed in the groin with a hot poker. And who says romance is dead?
Oh, yes, because trying to pull someone out of a depression that is slowly sucking the newly regained life out of them by totally misguided but well-intentioned efforts...
Wow, you saw something totally different. He wasn't trying to pull her out of the depression she was in. He furthered her descent into darkness because he was getting at least part of what he wanted. So yeah, it was a lot similiar.
But that's not the point of this blog and I don't wanna clutter up Brian's blog with more of the same useless debate - people saw what they saw. Suffice it to say I absolutely did not see this white-washed version of the degrading B/S sex-a-thon that you saw in season 6.
Re: Buffyfest interview. Please keep in mind interviewers are hardcore Bangels and right now their goal is to create the impression that fandom hates Buffy/Spike relationship and adores Spider/Spike relationship. Bangels regularly organize hate campaigns against Buffy's love interests and their pro-Spider effords are the echo of their ongoing Spike-hate campaign.
Please, no Spider!!!
Brian, with all due respect, more than just "a couple of people" saw the Spider thing as non-consensual. Whatever you may have intended to depict, the image that came out was that of a cold, callous sexual assault. To be honest, I'm shocked and baffled that you'd think it looked like anything else. Several of the posts here have pointed out specifically the details that make it sexual molestation. I know that these are only fictional characters, but I will never, ever even remotely entertain the idea that anything that happened between them was consensual, and I hope that Spider is never put anywhere near Spike again.
Please keep in mind interviewers are hardcore Bangels and right now their goal is to create the impression that fandom hates Buffy/Spike relationship and adores Spider/Spike relationship. Bangels regularly organize hate campaigns against Buffy's love interests and their pro-Spider effords are the echo of their ongoing Spike-hate campaign.
*giggles*
OMG, that's so hysterical in it's paranoia and blatant untruths. Not surprising, but definitely funny...
Spider is a deal-breaker for me. I was glad you let her fade away in AtF, but if she comes over to the Spike series, I'm gone. The stuff in S:AtF was unbelievably off-putting. Even leaving that aside, we haven't seen *anything* in her that would make her an interesting partner for Spike. Spike always aspires for women who are above him one way or another. I don't get why you think having a bimbo hanging on him is what he's after but it's just not. And it's disgusting that you'd think a bimbo with hot pokers and utter disregard for Spike's dead flock could appeal to Spike in any way. Spike was never nice to Harmony and Harmony is far more appealing. (OK that's not saying much -- my cat's tapeworm laden barf is more appealing than Spider -- but you get the point.)
You've got a lot of interesting OC's. But don't wreck a perfectly promising series by pretending that Spider wasn't successful. (As in not at all successful).
As for where this falls in the shipping wars, I do think a lot of the pro-Spider sentiment comes from Bangels who really don't like Spike. I love Spike and would actively like him to move beyond Buffy. But I need that story to be plausible at least, and preferably compelling. Spider is just the exact opposite of anything that I'd want to see.
I could not deal with Spike being with Spider. I was willing to give the character a chance until I found out what she did to Spike. I could really care a less who Spike ends up with, romantically, if anyone as long as it's not her. The way I see things is that the character had potential. Things could have worked out and hey maybe a good relationship could have happened. That idea fell flat on it's face the second I found out what happened between them. What I don't understand is how someone can write such a wonderful storyline, even adding the "unhappy" parts, and not understand that what they wrote comes across as somone being raped or at the very least dubious consent. It didn't ruin the whole comic for me because overall it was very enjoyable. I would just never bring that character back. Any potential is lost. There is no turning back now.
Seems like a lot of jumping the gun on the hysteria. Brian has said there is no guarantee that Spider would even be THERE and unless I missed it, there was no hint that if she *was* that she would be paired with Spike. But man, you gotta love fandom for this kind of over the top reaction.
She could always be there and made into a character people actually liked *without* pairing him with Spike. That's what Tok should be for. ;-)
I loved all the Spangelly stuff in your interview, Brian, and am over the moon about you saying Angel will be in the Spike comic a lot.
Can't get enough of those two together. Best couple in the 'verse.
I feel embarrassed for this section of the fandom and salute you for taking on this task, Brian Lynch.
If you keep doing what you've been doing, I will be a happy fan.
It will be a while before I can get my copy.I'm looking forward to reading it and all the lovely extras that these hardbacks usually come with.
This is weird. I haven't even planned out the majority of the series, and I'm already getting "I won't read it IF" statements.
I think maybe when I do plunge into the SPIKE series, I stay out of the internet's discussions about it. Last thing anyone wants is a writer changing a story because the most vocal fans REALLY want it.
And yes, it was consensual. The writer of the scene is telling you this. I can also have the artist of it tell you the same. Either way, when Spike rose to power at the end of SPIKE:ATF, I don't think he'd keep around someone who raped him.
I'm done here. Talk amongst yourselves in this comment section all you want, but this is kinda the opposite of fun.
Hey so did Non ever come back to life after The Senior Partners brought everything back to the alley?
Hey, Brian,
I'm reading current "After the Fall" miniseries and I plan to read upcoming "Spike" comics (although, I have to confess, the less Spider the better I feel) and I'm very curious about this revelation:
Brian Lynch said...
I haven't even planned out the majority of the series,
How actively Joss participated in creating the arcs of "Spike" comics? Do you have the impression that he is still interested in the 'verse?
Yikes, this got a little bit out of hand here. Fans need to fallback now.
Re: Buffyfest interview. Please keep in mind interviewers are hardcore Bangels and right now their goal is to create the impression that fandom hates Buffy/Spike relationship and adores Spider/Spike relationship. Bangels regularly organize hate campaigns against Buffy's love interests and their pro-Spider effords are the echo of their ongoing Spike-hate campaign.
Please, no Spider!!!
What it the world? Where did this come from? We didn't even as a question about her.
Brian, I see your life as a creator in a whole different light after the interviews. Not that you would, but please don't let us or any fan ever affect your decisions. Once that horror becomes a reality, it'll be the end of the Whedonverse as we know it!
I think we fansharks just smelled the chub that got thrown into the water regarding Spider. Now I'm imagining all the creators in a shark-safe cage being circled by Great Whites demanding, "Bring back Tara!", "Buffy movie!", "Kill Rona!" and "Get rid of Connor!"
And what has After the Fall taught us about that last one? See. I don't really want more Spider. But I didn't really want more Connor til Origin in Season 5, so who knows?
Great blog you got here. I'd like to read a bit more concerning that theme.
By the way look at the design I've made myself A level escort
I never was into comics and stuff, but I think if you get vampires and guns on the same plot, I'll buy it! I'm really looking forward to read it right now!
I found a great deal of helpful info in this post!
I think he was using his charms a bit with her to try and escape and save Fred. Spider is a little superficial but I think she actually does have some feelings for Spike
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