Thursday, January 22, 2009

Issue 16

SPOILERS FOR ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL # 16 if you haven't read it yet, because I'm gonna babble about it.

I'm serious!

Big spoilers!

I warned you...

...if you've read ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL # 16, you know that Angel and Wesley figured out that if Angel dies in hell, Wolfram & Hart needs to go back into his timeline to get him back. And since it was said that their time in hell was actually between moments, they had to go back to the very last moment in the actual timeline that Angel was around...

...which was the moment Angel first went to hell. So they yanked everyone out of hell, and life resumed for (most of) our characters.

When I told Chris Ryall the ending we cooked up, his eyes grew wide and he looked somewhat scared. I remember the moment perfectly. It was at my bachelor party, we were both a little tipsy in a very crowded bar, so of course we discussed ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL. I told him how the story was going to wind up and he was concerned that it would be a retcon, "none of this happened, it was all a horrible, horrible dream"...which is, of course, not the best way to end a series.

And then I realized that drunkenly yelling a two-sentence description of a comic book finale over a crowded bar is NOT the best way to pitch an idea. So I explained it further and he dug it. I don't think he was entirely convinced, however, until he read the issue. I'm noticing that's happening on quite a few places around the internet: people don't love the idea when they hear it, but when they see how it plays out, they dig it.

It was my job to make it so that the events you see in issue 16 clearly could be the only viable ending for this specific story. Of course, if everyone was coming back, we could have fun with body count (that seemed to please Mr. Whedon), but we had to keep it so a reboot wasn't a foregone conclusion. This meant, basically, not killing off Angel or Spike. Once that happened, people were gonna start thinking things would HAVE to be undone.

Connor's death was the key. Angel would do anything to change it. We hoped that the audience would root for it to be taken back. After all they've been through, and all that's happened to Connor in AFTER THE FALL, I wanted people to be so distraught and frustrated that Connor died at the end of issue 15 the only ending they'd accept was taking it back. I think, for some, we accomplished that. For others, it was a swell death and they were fine with it. To them I say, please, pretend the series ended with issue 15 and everyone's happy.

Remember in issue 2, Gunn is talking about the man Angel is, and how maybe THAT man isn't all that noble to begin with. After all, look what he did, look at the trouble he caused, look at the fate of those that trusted him. Well, Angel, just a man, killed himself without hesitation, on the chance that it save everybody and everything.

And hey, Cordelia actually tried to help Angel "move on". Whether or not she knew that was the solution, if Angel had gone with his oldest friend in the series, everything would have been okay.

Gunn to the humans he saved from Kr'ph in issue 1: "Think of the last couple of months as a bad, bad dream. That's all they were." Welllll, Gunn was on the right track. Hell, his plan to use Illyria to timeshift back to normal was kind of what Angel did...only, of course, Angel found a way to do it without hurting anybody but himself.

So, yeah.

That said, it wasn't a dream. It all happened. Betrayals, first loves, murders, deaths, it all happened. And now, every single person (and other assorted creature in Los Angeles) remembers EVERYTHING that happened.

From Illyria having all of Wesley and Spike's memories of Fred in her head, to the Powerful Demon Lords remembering Angel is the one that blowed them up real good, to the citizens of LA knowing who Angel and company are, to Connor realizing his first love was a traitor. The repercussions of this are enormous, from a story and a character standpoint. Angel is famous AND wanted by the demon underbelly. Illyria knows what it's like to be human more than she ever thought possible. Wolfram & Hart...well, we go into that a bit more next issue. You'll see.

The snowglobe has been shaken. All the characters are at different places to be sure.

Wow, this was long. My apologies. I just hope, above all else, that I did justice to the characters and entertained you. And, hey, an ANGEL issue/episode with a happy (ish) ending. Not something you see every day.


Jen said...

LoL! I was waiting for someone to make a Dallas reference I just didn't think it would you, Brian. I loved the issue and can't wait to see what happens next.

nora said...

I'm totally agree ! I'm totally convinced!
Such things to tell with this n° 16.

Bringing us to that climax (Connor's death ) with shocks and tears, then giving us this conclusion, well tied up and again with tears and happy end-like!

It's such the heart of the show Angel!

Brilliant !

And afterall ( after the fall :) ) nothing has changed but everything has changed!!!


Character's development has always been the most important of the show, and with the "new" situation of everyone, we just wait impatiently for the "what next ?"

Rebrilliant !

And of course,at the end, a brand new situation moving the Buffyverse : People Knows! and Angel's famous!

Well done Mr Lynch !

You made my year !

Fenderlove said...

Thank you for this, Brian. Instead of posting "This wasn't Groundhound Day!" to all the people who are being very naysaying at the moment, I think I'll just post a link to your post. *hugs* It was an incredible issue, and I look forward to #17.

Will you continue to make commentary on the new issues even though you aren't writing them? I can't wait to see the new projects you've got for 2009!

wyndam said...

Great read, thank Brian! Really shows how much care and attention you have given this series. That was already apparent, but it was still great to hear your thoughts. I can't wait to see what happens in the final issue.

Ricky said...

The fact that everything is physically (and even temporally) as it was, and yet emotionally and mentally everything has been drastically changed... it's just incredible.

I think that this is what we want the most as fans, a story that takes the characters we love, the ones we don't care for very much, and even the ones we just plain hate, and puts them through the wringer. A story that changes them in ways that have a profound impact on their future.

This takes the show's phenomenal finale and just amps it up to a whole new level. I can’t wait to see what repercussions this has for Angel & Co.

Thanks Brian! You’ve truly done us proud. Can’t wait for #17!

J. F. Gallegos Jr. said...

I was one of the people that dreaded the reset. But it never crossed my mind for it to happen this way! Having everyone remember everything is genius—a great way to take the series in a different direction. I think it's great that there was a happy ending, too—especially since it’s been a very long time since anything worked out for Team Angel (Connor’s birth being, possibly, the last time?). Of course this makes me dread Aftermath and beyond because... as we all know... happy in Angel's world only means darkness is on the horizon.

Anyway. This was a great issue and a great series. Thank you, Brian!

I have a quick question: Is the final issue going to have extra pages for all the incredible dialogue that is no doubt still to come?

Anonymous said...

I read the issue a few hours ago and I just have to say it – I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!
When Connor died I absolutely knew that you will find a way to turn this story back, so he could survive. Of course I was imagining some other things as well, like W&H giving Angel the chance to save one, just one of his dead loved ones and I was imagining him choosing Connor over Cordy and Wes and Doyle and Darla. I still like my idea, but your was far, far better and it really completed the story. And I just can’t wait to see issue 17 ^^

But now there is something I really can’t understand. I’ve been trying to figure it out for more then two hours and I’m still far from getting it. So I decided to ask you and I really believe you will help me understand. Here it is – Wolfram and Hard really wanted Angel to fulfill his destiny, the Shanshu, right? But then why did they want him to sign it off? Why? In issue 12 Wes says that they never filed it, because the whole LA was sent to Hell. But will they file it now? Do they really want it to be filed and if not – why did they ask Angel to sing it anyway?

I really hope I will get an answer to this one. It’s just really bothering me and I know you’ve got the right answer and I will be really, really thankful if you tell me this answer.

And thank you in advance ^^
Marto :)

Anonymous said...


The fact that you feel so compelled to explain and defend this ending is your instinct telling you the truth--it's a weak ending to a story that was strong until this point.

It doesn't matter if everyone remembers what happened. The physical consequences are erased. The characters didn't even have to live with the pain of those lost for more than a few minutes or one issue. You can cling to the point that there is psychological impact, but it is just not the same as coping with physical loss. Just like if Tara had come back to life five minutes later or in the next episode, but Willow remembered what it felt like to see Tara die, it would not be anywhere near the same magnitude or significance of actually dealing with the real loss.

You had me until the end. Hard to believe if you had full license to do what you wanted,"it was all a communal dream" was your first story choice. The finish doesn't live up, but you still deserve credit for doing great work within the given parameters.

Brian Lynch said...

I wasn't defending the ending. I read the issue this morning and was thinking about it. I wanted to get my feelings down while they were still strong. I'm not going to defend the ending, because I love the ending.

Anonymous said...

I loved that you brought back Connor. For me, everything about Angel is really Angel and Connor. And has been since Connors introduction in the show. So I was genuinly destroyed when he was killed off. I wasn´t human for a month. I was close to throwing my DVDs away because I couldn´t stand watching them. It ruined christmas and everything and I was so, SO angry.
Now, it feels like a burden of a thousand rocks have been lifted from me. It was beautiful the whole way.
So thank you for giving Connor back to Angel (and me).

Anonymous said...

yeah...i'm not buying it! It seemed like such a waste. I'm all for heartbreak and emotional growth and discovery out of tragedy but this ending shat on everything that has gone before.

Having the audience really respond to the person Connor had grown into and THEN kill him was the best thing that could've happened to that character. Saying it's more interesting to have him back and realize he was dead rings false. From Angel to Gunn, their dealing with connors death would've been more poignant and powerful than what's happened.

Great...he was a moody character who had grown and now is going to be reduced to another sniveling traumatized character because he was dead. It's been done before...Buffy season six anyone????

If everyone except the dead (gwen, Gru, and Connor) had to deal with the repercussions of Gunns actions, than that would'be made for an interesting read.

the more i think about it, the more it really upsets me that this happened. I was horrified at Connors brutal death, but in a good way. This gave a different taste of horror---the bitter kind.

Good job until that drivel called an issue. And i want to be clear that i've loved what you have done and respect you as a writer. I'm not pissing and moaning just to do so. Its just the reason given for whats happened does not make sense to me, especially when you had a lot more possibilites ahead.

This is "One More Day" all over again.

Brian Lynch said...

Sorry you think so, Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous.

Anonymous said...

I respect and admire everyones opinion. But it seems that everyone is saying the same thing: "I was in shambles when Connor died, but now i feel all better."

That's great. We don't ALWAYS have to wallow in misery, but that's were drama comes into play.

Where would Buffy and Angel be if they ended up together and happy? I don't know, but i bet it would'nt be as interesting as whats gone before.

Fuck it...let's go back and stop Holtz from kidnapping Connor, or Wesley from unwittingly helping him...there would be no drama and the repercussions (for the audience at least) would be so much sweeter than these fanciful scenarios of a happy ending.

You have more talent in your little finger than i do in my entire body, so I hope that you understand my respect and admiration for what you do, Mr Lynch. but this was a HUGE mistake. How sweeter would it have been if Gunny had to deal with Killing Angels son? I mean, REALLY-NOT-COMING-BACK-DEAD??

Angel KNOWING Gunn was a vampire when he committed this atrocious act and betrayal, but having to put on a good face while trying to console his friend. My God, it writes itself. Now that everyones alive, sure, there will be drama but not to the degree that was there initially...

Ending ruined the run for me. And the ending is everything.

Brian Lynch said...

The everything. You know what you should do? Take my earlier advice and pretend the series ended with issue 15. Perfection for anonymous!

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I didn't like it. Everyone seemed to really enjoy it and that's all anybody could ask for.

I guess i should just be happy that there was a continuation of Angel's story beyond 'not fade away'.

Brian Lynch said...

Thank you, though, for the kind words about most of the series, and about me. Very nice of you.

Did our comment discourse end better than ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL? I hope so.

Anonymous said...

I liked the ending, though whether I continue to like it sort of depends on what future writers in the franchise do with the material they've been given. I hope they don't choose to ignore it.

I don't see Connor as being traumatised by his momentary death in HellA. This version of him seems too well-adjusted for that. And Gunn's story, which I've thought was the best all along, continues to fascinate, because now he has to find some way to live with his vampire memories. I hope Angel and Spike can help him with that, because they'll be the only people who can understand.

Speaking of Spike, I've noticed that very few people who've talked about this comic have mentioned him. I liked his role in this issue, Mr Lynch, but there've been times during the story when he's seemed pretty surplus to requirements.

How do you see him progressing from this point on, if you don't mind saying?


Brian Lynch said...

We get a hint of Spike's future next issue. Angel and Spike have a pretty important talk that will kickstart Spike's future.

Anonymous said...


There is, i believe, one more issue to go, so maybe in hindsight i will enjoy it more. There might be something added that i haven't thought of.

I will continue to support the series and see what's next. I probably shouldn't have compared it to "One More Day"...i...was out of line. ;)

Brian Lynch said...

Yeah that hurt most of all!

Anonymous said...

Thanks for answering my question, Mr Lynch. I appreciate it.

I'm hoping Spike's future is with Angel really. If not, I guess that's the last we'll see of him for a while.


Anonymous said...

Hello Brian.

I was the guy with "blast from the past" and I wanna say sorry, if I was to offensive with it, but after hearing your thoughts about it and why things were done, it all is pretty convincing.

So I wanna say sorry. And I wanna say thank you for the best Angel Storytelling ever for over a year. Thank you.

Please come back and do another continuation. Please! Please! Please!

Would you like to?


Anonymous said...

So what was your favorite scene? I was thinking maybe it was when Angel made the "rogue demon hunter remark", which was pretty cool in a lot of ways.

Anonymous said...

We get a hint of Spike's future next issue. Angel and Spike have a pretty important talk that will kickstart Spike's future.

Spike's future better be with Angel... We got more than enough Spike/Illyria in "After the Fall", I want to see the boys' relationship get explored a bit now. :(

Caz said...

This issue was my favourite so far, the perfect conclusion really, a wonderful suprise.Heartbreaking and heartwarming. I'm looking forward to #17.

Anonymous said...

Wow Brian , thanks for it all .

Really , It was like the old days of Angel all over . Actually that´s tyhe only comic book that gets me nowadays. I´m a huge Illyria fan , when she fell , I was crazy here!!! But then you brought her back , and improved !!!

Thank you very much!

You should write some Buffy too , that thing is kinda dull ....

Anonymous said...

My favorite scene? Well, nothing can top “Yes. But so was she.” It was just perfect, absolutely perfect.

And Mr Lynch, why are you not saying anything to help me with my question? I realize it’s kinda rude to ask you to steal from your own free time just so you could help me figuring out the answer, but… But I just really can’t find it by myself.
And in your post you said “Wolfram & Hart...well, we go into that a bit more next issue. You'll see.” Maybe that’s where I will find the answer :? Is this the reason you didn’t say anything about my question? Because if LA going to Hell was the only reason why they never filed the contract, that means that they will file it now, right? But that stills doesn’t explain why they are so desperate to help Angel fulfill the Shanshu, when they asked him to sign it away…

And one more thing I’ve been wondering. Totally not a main problem, but still – is the sweet Eve dead now? She was in the building of W&H and her last words indicated that she wasn’t planning on leaving it. And now the offices are destroyed and I’m just wondering if we are going to see her again :)

Marto again :)

Mary said...

I would like to give my compliments to this issue.
I have read every comic so far and enjoyed it, but Connor´s death hurt me in not a good way.
I was thinking I would end my subscription because I thought that you just brought everyone back just to kill them off. Connor was the death that was a step to far for me. It was amazingly done, but something I really hated happening.
But I thought it was excellent using Connor´s death as something that would finally send Angel over the edge. And then, Angel´s death was what caused the whole "be kind, rewind" sort of thing. Such good storytelling.
I think it was much better than make a series just to let everyone die. THAT would feel cheap. Not what we have now.
It will be interesting to see how they manage in the real L.A after everything they been through. I think this was the best issue yet.
I applaud you.

Barry said...

I just have to say that I've truly enjoyed this amazing ride you've taken our favourite characters on over the last issues. Your work on the series has been some of the best and truest comic writing I've seen in years. The thing that always made the series was the clear love that you showed for the characters. You were a fan, but cared too much about the characters to just write fan service. You didn't write all the happy endings and moments that fans write in their fanfiction, you wrote a true continuation and further exploration of these characters and their world.

I do however have just one tiny question. When they called LA and everything was normal... What was that about?

Anonymous said...

Posted at Slayalive aswell but encase you don't log on I thought I'd post here too:

One of the best Buffyverse comics I have read so far. This might change as we still have a lot of issues for Buffy season 8 but so far this has been amazing.

After The Fall really ended on a nice note. The fight scene at the ned was brilliant we finally got to see the alley fight. I don't know if you or Joss had intended on holding out with that and then giving us it at the end but that's what it felt like to me turned the page and said "THE ALLEY FIGHT"

Fantastic issue with some very solid writing and art. Not to keen on Angel's line to Wesley "Rogue Demon Hunter" come on Brian. I did however really like the mention of Angel's heart beating fast whenever he was on the dragon and now he's a vampire again he just feels nothing. Also got the same sort of drawing from isseu 1 except the city was normal again. Not to sure how I feel about Angel and the gang being famous I would have much rathered a few people walking up to him and asking about him and then in classic Angel he just says either "I'm Angel I beat the bad guys" OR "It doesn't matter who I am just go home" and then he leaves and walks away into the shadow.

I'm sure everyone has their own little opinions but over all After The Fall has been a great experience. I know we still have one more issue but still issue 16 was exceptional, well done Brian and Thank You!

PatShand said...

Brian, can you tell us that favorite scene you were talking about?

Flashdisk said...


It’s a great read. And its jam packed with action and development. To me, THIS IS NO RESET. To me this is what you’d call a mass resurrection. All of those who had died in ATF have seemingly been resurrected. For me this is shocking, new and gutsy. One of the few times I’ve seen something like this happen is in the anime dragon ball z. (It’s ironic with James Masters being Piccolo in the dragon ball movie coming up and ATF. If what happened in ATF is no joke, then that means he’ll be in two stories we’re there has been a mass resurrection) I keep shaking my head right now, wondering if this is actually what has happened. (Piccolo/Spike must be some sort of weird lucky charm, because this is really shocking)
Throughout Angel the series, Angel has been like the universe’s butt monkey. Everything bad has been happening to him and his companions. I was expecting the ending to this comic to be full out sadness. I was expecting it to be a phyrric victory as always or even a loss. But this sudden twist in events left me stunned. I can only say, “WHAT IN THE WORLD, THIS IS A MIRACLE! ARE THEY GETTING AN OUNCE OF RESPITE FOR ONCE”!! Even now I’m still sceptical. I’m wondering, are you people really doing something different from the tried and true formula? IS THIS VICTORY REALLY GOING TO TAKE? I still can’t believe it.
And what’s more you’ve made me wonder about the people of Los Angeles. I’d imagine the many that had died during their trip to hell and back are experiencing some type withdrawal. I’m wondering what changes these people are probably having after living for months in hell, constantly fighting for survival, experiencing immense hardship, discovering the existence of the supernatural and others then finally and suddenly getting back to earth. This is really, really, really big. How will they adapt, what changes will there be to each person, their whole way of life?

What changes has their trip to hell done to each person who has come back? How can you even write all of this into a single comic book?
Did you say you’d be leaving doors open for future storylines? You weren’t joking. You blew open large openings. I’m... really excited to read those stories. 

And what about Wolfram and Hart? Could they be calling it quits after returning Angel to his timeline? Are they reeling in shock from realizing that Angel not only forced them to return everyone to earth, but also tricked them into resurrecting all those people who had died from ATF? What are they planning now?

And now there is one comic to go.... and I want to read it. :)

Shep said...

It feels like the old days of Angel.

I'm not sure what to think about the ending. If find myself wondering whether it would have had more of an impact if the gang landed in normal L.A. and saw people continuing with their lives completely oblivious as to the whole ordeal the protectors of their city had been through.

I agree with Anon that it would've been better if Angel went all mysterious-like again and walked off into the shadows but he doesn't seem to be liking the attention too much at the moment. Will he end up doing some sort of memory spell to make everyone forget, in order to give them their normalcy back (I know Angel's big on the whole changing-things-so-everyone-but-him-can-be-happy)?

Having said that, I'm eagerly anticipating #17. Can't wait to see how this ends! You've done an amazing job! Thank you for bringing Connor back. I love how much he's changed and really become his father's son. Finally, Angel has managed to retain something he loved. His throwing up when he realised he slept with Cordelia was pretty funny for me!

I'm just kinda confused as to what Wolfram & Hart's actual plan is for Angel. Initially, the TV series, they wanted him dark, as an agent of evil, but now they want him to be Shanshued? Is it so he'd be weaker as a human and therefore couldn't meddle, because they should know by now Angel wouldn't care if he was a vampire, human, or frog; he'd still carry on! Splainy please, Brian!

Oh, and one more thing. Now that everything's returned to not-so-normal, does Angel get his tattoo back?

Anonymous said...

From how I understand it was revealed that the Shanshu is actually really realy bad.

The role of the vampire with a soul in the Shanshu prophecy is not to be the champion of good, but the champion of evil. Wolfram and Hart's MVP.

Then, when he had destroyed all that is good in the Whedonverse, he'd get his Shanshu.

Anonymous said...

No long comment from me, just a thank you very very much!

Flashdisk said...

By the way, I was just wondering about the double meat palace at the end.

Does this mean the Senior Partners are going into the fast food business as well? (After all I think Wolfram and Hart currently has a big problem regarding public relations)

Anonymous said...

Issue #16 - Reset was Reveal a forced perspective - Reads well.
... and then there's;
Where's Winifred with the Sarah Connor patented broken mop handle ™ poking him in the chest to see if he's too happy? Huh? No 'Fred' and No 'Wes' means Illy has to rerereensoul an Angelus if that's next, unless recent events recall 100 years of vampirism (and .1k years in hell via Acathla ep) are sobering enough *Bastard Sons of Holtz etc. So, Pirate Gunn get's a parrot or... Illy has some 'all seeing tiger'seye stone and makes a Gunn sight with it? Is THE SCHWARTZ gonna want facetime with the next 'Governor with a soul and Dragon' for limelight legacy - No W&H, no demoncrats? Or is Angel just gonna pronounce LAians have enough 'taxing' them; Leave Minion's of Hell cleanup to AI and The Cross.

Groo with MTVisions? Gwen with Granspawn? Angel as a Great Granspawner?
Selective service / Obama's 'National Service Brown Shirts' get Connor? Nina and The Slayers go Goth/Country? Will there be Sports Illustrated Spiderage Issue published by Spike, well, calendars anyway? Faith? Is Cordelia the flying horse? did Krevlorneswath DethWok read any demons?

Illy as sous chef... no 'book' recipes, no 'diagrams' of mystic arsenal, she is arsenal* aka valuable target - the arabs play 'got your goat' for real... wonder if W&H get upstaged by Muslim version of ... Dubii Sultanate's Watcher's Council of Non-virgin Jihad... A mecca for hijinks.

*Wini's p-dimentional dbase and Watcher's Head Boy V-Chipped into "OldOnes" Banquo's ghost of Christmas yet to past has HARDWARE written all over it. Pocket dark matter universes tapped as evil's drain plug; Superstring syphon of goodness - sub arc; last Power standing wins; Illy. ... IFW FIW WFI (WiFi) Sybil savants abound as W/W Hetrodyne into quantum quazarian hellcat status but, what to fight; singularity?

I'm just Saiyan

Shep said...

Actually, the more I read #16, the more I like the ending. Much better than having everyone not remember at all. Makes Buffy #21 make a lot more sense! Great work Brian!

Shep said...

Ok, Anonymous: what on earth are you on about?

Jessica said...

Kinda late to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I really enjoyed #16 and the entire series for that matter. I really liked how Angel 16 tied in with Buffy 21. Because Angel and Buffy comics are released by different companies I always put the discontinuity up to different universes now. But this made total sense. We knew that LA in Buffy's world wasn't in a hell dimension and now this explains why. This also explains why Harmony getting a Hills-ish reality show would be such a nonevent.
Don't worry about the naysayers, after all you can't please everyone. And, remember, Buffy/Angel fans always hate the current season. Its a long standing tradition that you are now apart of, yay you!

Anonymous said...

It worked for me.

I'm the girl who stopped watching Dallas when Bobby climbed out of the shower, but this works because it actually happened. Everyone remembers.

The one problem I was having with the series was that nobody outside LA knew what was going on. That only makes sense if it was some sort of time bubble (or whatever techno-babble you want to use).

I did get frightened when Angel was so happy to see Connor. Probably the happiest he had ever been in his life.

So, why isn't he Angelus now?

Shep said...

Good question redeeem147. Maybe because he's still got a lot to deal with? I remember he was ecstatic when Connor was born, but I'm guessing perfect happiness was still a no-go since the kid was on every evil thing's hitlist.

Or I could be completely wrong. Just a thought. said...

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